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Pol Lounge General News Thread of "This doesn't deserve it's own thread" (Page 69)
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Posting Junkie
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I like the simplification that conservatism is "Me, me, me." and liberalism is "Us, us, us."
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Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep
I like the simplification that conservatism is "Me, me, me." and liberalism is "Us, us, us."
Prosperity of the individual drives prosperity of society.
vs.
Prosperity of society allows prosperity of each individual.
Take the first one too far and you end up with monopolies and an oligarchy. Take the second one too far and you lose all incentives for productivity and improvement.
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Originally Posted by Laminar
Well yeah - the historical/evolutionary strategy is "Thrive RIGHT NOW. No part of the future is guaranteed, so what might happen in 20 years doesn't matter right now."
Prehistoric strategy. The selection pressures which created it are those of 50,000+ years ago
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Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep
I like the simplification that conservatism is "Me, me, me." and liberalism is "Us, us, us."
Conservatism is “us, us, us… but not you.”
A/K/A tribalism.
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Originally Posted by subego
Prehistoric strategy. The selection pressures which created it are those of 50,000+ years ago
Again, following this line of argumentation implicitly adopts a line of thinking that is mostly used to justify any sort of "culling" of society — because that's allegedly the "evolutionary pressure" of prehistoric times. Which is bollocks.
One could just as easily argue (and it has been) the evolutionary advantage that inclusion and pulling everybody through strengthens and stabilises society. It depends how wide you set the lens of "local" rivalries: competing families, competing villages, competing valleys, competing fiefdoms, kingdoms, or empires? Or continents? or - as is currently the only real survival advantage — planet?
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Originally Posted by subego
Conservatism is “us, us, us… but not you.”
A/K/A tribalism.
Its a very limited us though. Doesn't seem to extend much beyond immediate family these days. And if you've ever seen large inheritances play out, greed often trumps family too.
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Originally Posted by Laminar
Prosperity of the individual drives prosperity of society.
I don't see much in the way of genuine concern for society from this side any more.
Originally Posted by Laminar
Take the first one too far and you end up with monopolies and an oligarchy. Take the second one too far and you lose all incentives for productivity and improvement.
The former has is playing out and has played out before. Has the second ever actually gotten to a crisis point? Feels like the fear of it is usually used to justify swinging the other way long before its a genuine problem.
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Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot
Again, following this line of argumentation implicitly adopts a line of thinking that is mostly used to justify any sort of "culling" of society — because that's allegedly the "evolutionary pressure" of prehistoric times. Which is bollocks.
High mortality is a selection pressure to have lots of babies (baby factory).
That’s not a justification to cull society, it’s the opposite.
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Clinically Insane
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Originally Posted by subego
High mortality is a selection pressure to have lots of babies (baby factory).
That’s not a justification to cull society, it’s the opposite.
No, it's PRE-societal selection pressure. Society works by ensuring the survival of the society, not of the individual. Simply having lots of babies is not an advantage to survival of society, unless you have in place a framework to supply them and the caretakers with food and protection.
The second part of my post you replied to contains the pertinent context.
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The conservative survival strategy creates a framework to supply these children and be caretakers for them by prioritizing:
1) The maintenance of authority structures and hierarchies
2) Belief in religion
3) The pursuit of tribal dominance.
These aren’t liberal strategies. In fact, generally speaking, liberals are outright antagonistic towards these strategies because they are neither fair or compassionate.
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Ironically, it’s liberals who are the individualists. Liberals encourage people to let their freak flag fly. It’s no accident most artists are liberals.
Conservatives demand rigid conformity and submission to the collective. They’re commies minus the utopia bullshit.
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I should add… liberals are also universalists. The implications of individualism change as one’s compassion casts a wider and wider net.
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Far left: we're gonna
get everyone's basic
needs met.
Far right: we're gonna
exterminate entire
social groups because
they are impure.
Centrists: I literally
cannot tell you two
apart.
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Clinically Insane
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Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep
Far left: we're gonna
get everyone's basic
needs met.
Far right: we're gonna
exterminate entire
social groups because
they are impure.
Centrists: I literally
cannot tell you two
apart.
For a completely arbitrary definition of "centrist".
The "Far left" in your explanation is actually pretty much the center. "Making sure everybody's needs are met" is literally the only job any government has.
Actual far left: we're gonna nationalise all private companies and means of production and pay everybody a living wage.
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Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot
Actual far left: we're gonna nationalise all private companies and means of production and pay everybody a living wage.
The irony I was pointing to is while founded in liberal morality, the dictatorship of the proletariat runs on conservative strategy. Replace religion with communist dogma, which demands submission to itself and the state. All the hierarchies they’ve ostensibly dismantled mysteriously reappear in red spades.
Baby factory? You mean more workers for the revolution, comrade.
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Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot
Actual far left: we're gonna nationalise all private companies and means of production and pay everybody a living wage.
I would say paying everyone a living wage even if they don't work (despite not having a reason) would be far left. Paying everyone a living wage for their job seems a regular amount of left at most.
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Clinically Insane
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Where does “ from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs” fit?
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Originally Posted by subego
Where does “ from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs” fit?
It fits OK in schools or churches (charities). In politics, far-left in my opinion.
Though nearly all the problems with that position are at the extremes. ie - tax rates on the top earners, and persistent needs for the absolute worthless never-achievers. Temporary support when needed (jobless claims, maternity leave, medical absence) doesn't get most people riled up. Just as tax rates on upper-middle class isn't a hot-button issue.
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Clinically Insane
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The second paragraph makes it sound not particularly far left.
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Originally Posted by subego
Where does “ from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs” fit?
Atlas Shrugged. It doesn't work anywhere else, because humans.
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Chris. T.
"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
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Clinically Insane
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Well, there’s some horseshoe theory for ya. ![Smilie](http://forums.macnn.com/images/smilies/oldschool/smile.gif)
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Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep
I would say paying everyone a living wage even if they don't work (despite not having a reason) would be far left. Paying everyone a living wage for their job seems a regular amount of left at most.
Agreed. "Far left" was the package of nationalising all enterprise AND using the profits to pay everybody a living wage.
Making sure that everybody who has one full-time job can actually live off it isn't "left"; it's just the state doing its fucking job of ensuring the livelihood and health of its citizens.
Originally Posted by subego
Where does “ from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs” fit?
It's in there: half of it is in "living wage" — that's an alien concept based on the radical leftist idea that people need to live; half of it in the assumption that those state-owned means of production probably need people working in them.
I'm not saying that this has ever worked, or that it even could work — I'm just readjusting the political scale for those who think the spectrum is between moderately conservative and outright fascism, because those are the only choices they seem to want.
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Clinically Insane
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So, this quote I gave is just “regular left”? That’s not where it came from of course.
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Originally Posted by subego
So, this quote I gave is just “regular left”? That’s not where it came from of course.
I gave a definition of actual „far left”.
You asked me where that left the classic Marxist slogan.
I replied how it was part of my definition of “far left”.
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Clinically Insane
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Thank you for clarifying! I was confused by the post.
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Originally Posted by subego
Thank you for clarifying! I was confused by the post.
You know, I really appreciate that you didn't take the slight snarkiness inherent in my post personally and genuinely asked for clarification.
Apologies for the confusion. I opt for snark over clarity a little too often.
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Well, I appreciate the clarification, and I apologize in that I often really do get genuinely confused by things which are relatively straightforward.
I’m an excellent editor (of other people’s writing, not my own) because if there’s a way to misunderstand a sentence I will find it.
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Originally Posted by Laminar
Ugh. That’s horrible and freaky.
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"If you're a Republican, you can't even lie to Congress or lie to an FBI agent or they're coming after you"
~ Louie “dumbest man in congress” Gohmert, in reaction to Peter Navarro arrest
FWIW, lying to the FBI is a felony.
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If I understand the context correctly, he’s contrasting that a Democrat indicted on the same charge (Michael Sussmann) was trusted just to show up at trial rather than being thrown in the poke.
ETA: I have no idea how valid the comparison is, I’m only noting he’s making one, a fact obfuscated by the incomplete quote.
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Last edited by subego; Jun 4, 2022 at 02:29 PM.
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I don't think any context is needed. After all, Louie Gohmert was the one who asked if the Forest Service or BLM could address climate change by adjusting the orbits of the Earth or Moon.
"We know there's been significant solar flare activity. And so, is there anything that the National Forest Service or BLM (Bureau of Land Management) can do to change the course of the moon's orbit or the Earth's orbit around the sun? Obviously, that would have profound effects on our climate," the congressman asked Eberlien.
Eberlien responded that she "would have to follow up with you on that one, Mr. Gohmert."
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I’m someone for whom more context is welcome regardless. ![Smilie](http://forums.macnn.com/images/smilies/oldschool/smile.gif)
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Also, broken clock, etcetera.
If the two situations are comparable, it is notable if they’re receiving different treatment. Again, I have no idea if they truly are. They let Navarro keep his passport, so it would (at least superficially) indicate the Feds don’t think he’s that big a flight risk.
That said, Navarro is playing a batshit gambit of not lawyering-up. I’m almost positive if Sussmann didn’t get arrested it’s because his lawyer facilitated it. I say “if”, since TBH I don’t actually know for a fact Sussmann wasn’t arrested, only my cursory search failed to find evidence of it happening.
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Originally Posted by subego
Ugh. That’s horrible and freaky.
It’s horrible and happens every fucking day in the United States.
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Sorry — three times a day, as it were.
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What statistic are you thinking of? Homicide by gun in the US in 2019 was about 28 a day.
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Philly, Phoenix, El Paso.
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Man. Things keep getting weirder and weirder in Uvalde.
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Originally Posted by Thorzdad
Man. Things keep getting weirder and weirder in Uvalde.
What are you referring to specifically?
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So obviously any kind of gun ban is going to fail in the senate, and if Biden had the balls to issue an EO banning MRs (for example) I imagine there would be sufficient outcry and pushback that it wouldn't last long. From the outside, it is beginning to feel like there might be enough sentiment building to make some kind of change though. Perhaps you disagree being closer to things?
What if the dems said: "Hey, you want more armed police in schools, more cameras, gates, detectors, security features etc? We also think schools need to make sure they have counsellors trained in treating trauma and such and medical staff and equipment to treat gunshot victims. How do we pay for it all though? Lets tax the shit out of guns."
Its not a ban so the SC can't touch it, right? Could that stick?
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I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
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I’m not convinced conservatives want those things.
ETA: As I think was mentioned before, Biden can’t ban a gun by EO. EOs are policy directives to federal agencies. He can’t direct them to treat legal activity as illegal. The courts would immediately strike that down (as well they should).
Edit 2: ARs?
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Last edited by subego; Jun 6, 2022 at 08:55 PM.
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I'd be OK with restricting assault rifles to 21+. Perhaps those red-flag laws too, where weapons are restricted for those who exhibit warning signs. Say, domestic disputes resulting in police response.
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Originally Posted by reader50
I'd be OK with restricting assault rifles to 21+. Perhaps those red-flag laws too, where weapons are restricted for those who exhibit warning signs. Say, domestic disputes resulting in police response.
You could also think about mandatory waiting periods and the like.
In addition to those mandatory things, I'd also suggest to have lots of voluntary measures. For example, vets who suffer from PTSD are more likely to commit suicide. Veterans Affairs could support a buddy system where friends keep an eye on someone who isn't stable and ask them to keep their guns until their mental state stabilizes. Another easy one are gun buy backs.
Originally Posted by subego
I’m not convinced conservatives want those things.
Is that really true, though? I think there are plenty of measures that have broad support amongst the US population across the political spectrum. Mandatory background checks is one that comes to mind.
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Originally Posted by OreoCookie
Another easy one are gun buy backs.
Side note, my objection to gun buy backs is the traded-in guns are usually destroyed. Not resold, no matter the quality of the gun.
Someone sells them something priceless from the 1800s. But the buyback terms require destruction - so, poof. A good quality gun of any vintage shouldn't be destroyed. Even though I read mostly in electronic form today, I have trouble trading in my printed books. Because I know most will be destroyed today. Finely machined products, worth hundreds or thousands of dollars, should not be treated as trash.
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Originally Posted by reader50
Side note, my objection to gun buy backs is the traded-in guns are usually destroyed. Not resold, no matter the quality of the gun.
Someone sells them something priceless from the 1800s. But the buyback terms require destruction - so, poof.
Two honest questions: (1) How big of a concern is that really? I don't think the majority of guns are of any historical value. And (2) this indicates to me that the person who owned this gun doesn't know its value. That happens in other areas all the time where e. g. people own rare collectible books and aren't aware of their value. In practice, I would expect that this happens very rarely.
Originally Posted by reader50
A good quality gun of any vintage shouldn't be destroyed. Even though I read mostly in electronic form today, I have trouble trading in my printed books. Because I know most will be destroyed today. Finely machined products, worth hundreds or thousands of dollars, should not be treated as trash.
I think the biggest correlation to gun violence is the sheer number of guns, and meaningful change in the US would only come from a significant reduction in the number of firearms. (And they should be recycled, not thrown away, of course.)
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Originally Posted by reader50
I'd be OK with restricting assault rifles to 21+.
New York just did exactly that. We’ll see how that goes.
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Originally Posted by OreoCookie
Is that really true, though? I think there are plenty of measures that have broad support amongst the US population across the political spectrum. Mandatory background checks is one that comes to mind.
My guess is what most conservatives support is forcing dealers to run background checks on their customers, and that’s what they’re imagining when they affirm the idea. This is more or less the law now.
Mandatory checks on private sales is what doesn’t fly.
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Last edited by subego; Jun 6, 2022 at 10:35 PM.
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